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B**T
Daniel 11&12, Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4&5... These are key Bible chapters and they are linked
I liked how the author links 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 and 5 to Matthew 24. Paul was definitely using Matthew 24 as his source in his discussions about the Rapture with the Thessalonians; and the Thessalonians were Gentiles! So making the case that Matthew 24 only pertains to the Jews does not make any sense. Why is Paul using Matthew 24 while talking to Gentiles if it only pertains to Jews? There's the Thief in the Night reference along with the admonitions to stay awake and sober which link up perfectly with Jesus in Matthew 24. Also Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 that his teaching came from "the word of the Lord". How? Where? Was this a hidden teaching that none of the Gospel writers mentioned?... or is he of course referencing Matthew 24. This should be obvious. You actually have to work hard in order to deny the connection. I also like how the author goes to Daniel Chapters 11 &12 and pairs them up with Matthew 24. Jesus himself references the prophet Daniel in conjunction with the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24. So no guess work making a connection here. Daniel 11 &12; Matthew 24; and 1 Thessalonians 4 &5 are all connected and speak of the same events: The Abomination of Desolation, The Great Tribulation, The Rapture, and the Day of the Lord. They will all happen very closely to one another, but of course regarding the Rapture and Day of the Lord, "No one knows the day or hour." However... will we know the season? Learn the parable of the Fig Tree. "So likewise when you see all these things, you will know that it is near."I would have appreciated if the author would have discussed Daniel chapter 12 a little more. I think the resurrection in verse 2 is key. What resurrection is this? How many resurrections are there? According to Revelation chapter 20, there are only 2. There's the resurrection of dead believers which occurs almost coincidingly with the Rapture of the those who are alive and remain, and then there is the Great White Throne judgment of non-believers at the end of the millennium. So what resurrection is being talked about in Daniel 12:2? If it's the resurrection of believers and we according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 cannot precede those who have fallen asleep, then how can the Rapture be pre-trib? Because the Abomination of Desolation occurs at the end of Daniel chapter 11 and then Daniel chapter 12 opens with "At that time"... This is key and should not be passed over quickly... at what time? (remember chapter breaks were added later, but were not in the original text.) Well, what just occurred in Daniel chapter 11? It is perhaps the most undisputed and clearly placed prophetic event in the entire Bible, the Abomination of Desolation, and this event we know according to Daniel 9 occurs mid 70th week. If the Resurrection of the dead happens in Daniel 12 verse 2... after the Abomination of Desolation in chapter 11 (again, this is key) and we know according to Paul that the raptured cannot precede those who have fallen asleep (1 Thessalonians 4), then the Rapture cannot occur until both those things happen first. This causes the pre-trib view to have a major problem with a huge obstacle to overcome. Because we have 3 places in the Bible which all reference each other and when read in conjunction clearly place events in a very specific order. Daniel places the Abomination of Desolation (chapter 11) first, Great Tribulation (12:1) second, Resurrection (12:2) third. Jesus in Matthew 24 places Abomination of Desolation (24:15) first, Great Tribulation (24:21) second, a gathering of the elect (24:31) third. Then Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5 places the Resurrection of the dead in Christ (4:15) first, the Rapture of those who are alive and remain (4:17) second, and the Day of the Lord as a Thief (5:2) third. For all to be in agreement, it therefore has to be 1. Abomination of Desolation (antichrist revealed), 2. Great Tribulation (War against the saints), 3. Resurrection and Rapture of believers, and 4. Day of the Lord's Wrath. It's the only way Daniel 11 &12, Matthew 24, and 1 Thessalonians 4 &5 can all be in agreement.For even more confirmation of this order of events, we can go to 2nd Thessalonians 2, where Paul expounds even more (Again, he's talking to Gentiles here). The Thessalonians were concerned that they had somehow missed the Rapture and the Day of the Lord was at hand, but Paul admonishes them with verses 3 and 4, "Let no one deceive you, for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." So here we have Paul pleading with the Thessalonians that they need to calm down and not get worked up... why? They are worried that #3 has happened (Rapture) and #4 (Day of the Lord) is imminent, but Paul calms their fears and essentially tells them, "hey... relax..." #1 (The Abomination of Desolation) hasn't even occurred yet. Again, the same order of events as laid down in Daniel, Matthew, and 1 Thessalonians is confirmed. I would also point out that Paul is paralleling Jesus in Matthew 24 again with not only his mention of the Abomination of Desolation, but also the falling away, the great apostasy, that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:10-12. All these things absolutely confirm Paul's source is Matthew 24 and they are talking about the same things. They are identical events and also in right order. Apostasy first: Matthew 24:10-12 and then the Abomination of Desolation: Matthew 24:15. They parallel exactly what we just read from Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2. In regards to the larger order of events, I have found one more example in Daniel 7:21,22. “I was watching; and the same horn (1. antichrist who has been revealed) was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them (2. Great Tribulation), until the Ancient of Days came (3. coming in the clouds, resurrection, rapture), and a judgment (4. Day of the Lord) was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom (The Millennial Reign).So as you can see the Bible is consistent in its order of events; from Daniel, to Jesus, to Paul, and finally John in Revelation (okay, last one here.) Where in Revelation? Read Revelation chapters 12-14. You will find this same order #1 Antichrist revealed (12:12-14): Satan the dragon is cast to the Earth and it is proclaimed "woe to the inhabitants of the earth." Now I know many will say this is a stretch; antichrist isn't mentioned directly here, just the dragon (Satan) being cast down. However Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:9 "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders," but stay with me, what comes next will clearly confirm where things stand in the order of events. Notice it also proclaims that "he has great wrath." This leads to? #2 Great Tribulation and the war against the saints (12:17) "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"... We again are modeling Jesus' order of events in Matthew 24. See how in these verses 12: 13-16 the Jews are fleeing into the wilderness just as Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-16: “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."... this is what's happening here in Revelation 12:14 as paralleled in Matthew 24:15-16. Anyone saying that the saints are raptured already should take notice of the distinction made between "the woman" (Israel) and "the rest of her offspring who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (The Church) in verse 17. Many will say these are just Tribulation saints who come to faith after the Rapture, but then as I pointed to before, the resurrection in Daniel 12 is out of order at #3 because Paul tells us the dead are raised first; only then can the Rapture of the living take place. The only way to reconcile this issue is we either need multiple resurrections or somebody got it wrong? We have bigger issues if that's the case and I don't think so. The Great Tribulation is continued through chapter 13 where antichrist and his schemes are identified more fully, but finally we arrive at chapter 14 and we have the same 144,000 sealed from chapter 7 who are Jews and who will continue on to the end, but we also have #3 the Resurrection and Rapture of the church (14:14-16) followed up with #4 the Day of the Lord (14:17-20). There are two reapings described here. If both are for God's wrath then why mention two? Also notice verses 12 and 13 which immediately precede and how they compare with 2 Thessalonians chapter 1. Now back at Revelation 14:14, the one like a Son of Man on the clouds (Jesus) performs the 1st reaping and then another angel performs the 2nd which the grapes thereof are thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath. Clearly 'Day of the Lord' material in the 2nd reaping. It also then goes into the Bowl Judgments in chapter 15 & 16 and gives the details of that final judgment. I know some will ask, "Does the Rapture happen after the Trumpet judgments?" No. The Rapture has already occurred back in chapter 7 with mention of the innumerable multitude. Chapters 12-14 just retake us through all of human history. It is a pause in the action and a flashback reiterating Satan's original rebellion where he took 1/3 of the angels, then Christ the Child being born of the woman who later after His resurrection ascended into heaven, followed with taking us right back up through the 70th week of Daniel and right to the final Bowl judgments in chapter 15 where we come back to the natural chronological order. Is there anything else that suggests this pause in the action? What is the last thing that happens in Revelation 11? Start at verse 15. It's the 7th Trumpet. Notice what the 24 elders proclaim. I want to highlight verse 18: "The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, (key point next) And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great." Why is this important here? Because it includes all the saints and prophets small and great and they are receiving their rewards. The only way to do that is they must have already been resurrected and raptured. And this makes sense because we are right in-between the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments. If they were resurrected and raptured right before the Trumpets, then it would make sense they are receiving their rewards here. The Resurrection and Rapture occurred back in chapter 7 before the Trumpets. But then if all the saints are accounted for in chapter 11 and receiving their rewards, then how can antichrist make war with them in chapter 12? Like I said, chapter 12-14 is a pause and review with more detail of events that have already happened. It is like a flashback right before the climax of a story, reminding us of why the climax we are about to watch is so important. I would also make this observation: Revelation 12, 13, and 14 mirror the events in Revelation 5,6, and 7. However, in chapters 5, 6, and 7 we are seeing them from heaven's perspective and in 12,13, and 14, from earth's perspective. Notice how chapter 12 mentions the Child born of the woman who ascended into heaven and then back in chapter 5 we have the Lamb appearing as though He was slain coming into the throne room to open the scroll. The 5th seal martyrs matches up with the war against the saints in Revelation 12:17. And then of course chapter 7 matches up with chapter 14. The only way for the pre-trib view to be correct is either these chapters are not connected and not talking about similar events, (which seems very implausible)... or we have to make up multiple Abomination of Desolations, multiple Great Tribulations, and multiple Resurrections of believers all so the pre-trib rapture can take place out of sequence. Remember Daniel's chapter 12 verse 2 resurrection happens after the Abomination of Desolation in chapter 11. If there's more than one resurrection of the faithful, this would fly in the face of John who informs us in Revelation 20 of only 2 resurrections; one of believers and one of unbelievers. "Blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection." The 2nd doesn't occur until the end of the millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment and is for the unbelievers only.If the Pre-trib view is correct and it is required that the Rapture must be preceded by a resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4), then with Daniel's placement of his resurrection after the Abomination of Desolation, we now need two resurrections in order to satisfy the Rapture that's suppose to happen 1st in the sequence of events according to the Pre-trib viewpoint. Otherwise Daniel is wrong... but that's not all, because Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the Abomination of Desolation will also precede our gathering as well as the Day of the Lord. Now, not only do we need 2 resurrections of believers, but we also have to have a 2nd Abomination of Desolation before the pre-trib rapture. You say the gathering in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not the rapture? Still have a problem because Pre-trib says the whole 7 year period is the Day of the Lord's wrath and we still need a 2nd Abomination of Desolation to occur before the Day of the Lord... I wish I was done. Now that we have a 2nd Abomination of Desolation, we now need a 2nd Great Tribulation to satisfy Jesus who tells us in Matthew 24 that the Great Tribulation follows the Abomination of Desolation. Not only is there a problem that there's now 2 Resurrections and 2 Abomination of Desolations, and 2 Great Tribulations, but this mightily violates Daniel's placement of the Abomination of Desolation in the middle of the 7 year period that bears his very name, Daniel's 70th week! More so than this, if the Pre-trib position insists that the Rapture occurs before the Abomination of Desolation, it doesn't just create a 2nd set of end time events, it creates a never ending paradoxical series of these events occurring over and over and over... because don't we now need a 3rd resurrection in front? If this sounds ridiculous, it's because it is. The pre-trib view is wrong. The final argument by the Pre-trib viewpoint would be that Daniel, Jesus, and Paul are not talking about similar events. This of course as stated before, is crushed by Jesus who links His reference of the Abomination of Desolation to Daniel's account. This leaves Paul's version of the Abomination of Desolation in 2 Thessalonians 2. If this is not the same event as in Daniel 11 and Matthew 24, then it is a 2nd Abomination of Desolation and our previous paradox becomes renewed. This is absurd, because Paul also mentions the falling away, the great apostasy, which is also stated in conjunction with his version of the Abomination of Desolation. This again as already stated pairs up with Jesus in Matthew 24. Do you see the hoops and hurdles the Pre-trib view must leap through to deny the obvious? Remember when Jesus was tempted in the desert? He was tempted by Satan with scripture. But Jesus refuted him with other scripture. I think when we look at everything, only one solution becomes obvious. Daniel's resurrection at 12:2 is properly placed #3 behind the Abomination of Desolation #1, and Great Tribulation #2. This satisfies both Daniel 11 and Jesus in Matthew 24 if the "gathering" in 24:31 is synonymous with resurrection. This resurrection #3a. then precedes the rapture #3b. to satisfy Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4. Finally we satisfy Paul again in 2 Thessalonians 2 with the Day of the Lord #4 which comes after the great apostasy and the abomination of desolation. Everyone is satisfied, everyone is in agreement. It's easy to explain and yet pre-trib teachers will deny the whole thing because Jesus uses the word "gather" in Matthew 24:31. A never ending paradox isn't a problem, but a resurrection and rapture being called a gathering is?
S**N
A very nice treatment regarding the timing on the rapture and the biblically recorded events that surround that time period
No-hype, well laid out effort. The subject was covered nicely. Regarding readability, I was pleased to discover the author did the bulk of the work for me having provided biblical references within its pages. It made the reading easier and enjoyable. Notably, I found I didn't want the book to end. Perhaps that stems from the general subject matter. All believers can't help but be interested in the return of their Lord can they? I am not going to write a review as much as offer a bit of encouragement / gentle admonishment and a reassuring boost particularly to pretribulationist who may find residing an inward adversity or perhaps bias against that which opposes their view.Those who hold to this rapture position really should consider reading this book. Over time, I have discovered that those who get so worked up over criticism of a non-verified yet insistent belief do so because in the end, the position has no biblical defense (whether recognized or not). I suppose I am fortunate in that leaving it was for the most part-- painless. It was what I was first taught and believed, but over a relatively short period of time (about 18 months), I detected discrepancies (primarily from Mt 24) in the position that always had me scratching my head. Fortunately, I never got to the place where I found myself clinging to the position with vigorous tenacity as sometimes seems to be the case. A true puzzlement! Abandoning the position in the end was really just a matter of concluding the bible simply doesn't support the idea...in the least. I would submit, had I never been "taught" this position, I really don't think I would have, in the first place adopted such a view. Sure, I preferred the idea of escaping this planet unharmed from trouble, but I prefer to know what's true rather than what's not-- much more. And when it comes from Scripture, who would disagree? And let's face it; imitating an Ostridge just isn't conducive to proper preparation for end time study and Christian living. I by no means want my last sentence to appear derogatory, but truthfully, on the occasions this subject has come up in the past, it is generally the response I have gotten. Outside of easy escapism, what's the big attraction? Are we really that soft?But be assured, this book is not a critique of the PreTrib Rapture position. But, it's just that if the PreWrath position is correct, then pretrib isn't. And I guess they get that. Hopefully, those who will consider examining their view on this subject will remember first their love of God's Word as a priority over any tradition one holds to. So let me ask a reflective question. Have you personally verified within the pages of scripture --in a meaningful way-- your current position, or are you more so than not merely trusting on your past teachers as sufficient authority in and of itself? It's worthwhile to ponder this for a moment. Remember, sincerity in and of itself really isn't sufficient to establish truth. Nobody likes to give up that which they cherish, but don't let some nebulous inward grip keep you from discovering what scripture has to say on the subject. And indeed it does have something to say! And that by the way is what made the PreWrath position so attractive to me. Average Joes like me can get it simply by taking scripture for what it says! I don't need a scholar's or pastor's authority to fasten my belief to, to make it work. God has made it sufficiently understandable when taken as a whole.Anybody, willing to take the time and go over all the scripture will soon discover a substantial amount of biblical data dealing with this subject. And the beauty is how well it all comes together as a cohesive whole. For me initially (some 20 years ago), I remember not only recognizing how strong the position really is, but ALSO, given the vast difference of biblical authors, languages, times etc. it is drawn from to produce it all, it could not help but to instill a deeper confidence as to the source of its origin! I laugh and shake my head these days when I'm told the bible is merely a product from the hands of men.I'd like to say that the author of this book, Alan, is not your enemy, but a friend. If God has allowed him to help expound on His Word, [and if you are interested in this subject, as we all SHOULD be], then allow it. Possession of truth far outweighs an "I'm going to escape from all the trouble" type doctrine. If the bible did teach it, I'd gladly believe it. But it just simply doesn't. As a side thought, if you were to become a missionary in countries where Christians are currently undergoing harsh persecution and martyrdom, how might you go about even trying to teach a pretrib viewpoint given the extreme pressure/tribulation they're currently under?Look, I know as well as you scripture says, "God did not appointed unto wrath..." 1 Thes. 5:9 But if you are under the impression that only the pre-trib view allows this to be the case, you've got just a little more to learn. To be sure, we believers are all safe in this regard, but as plain as can possible be said, this "wrath" we are promised escape from, is God's Wrath-- not the enemy! And we NEED to know this. Yes, the enemy is deceptively at work now, but when he's cast to earth things/his anger are really going to intensify because of the shortness of his allotted time - so says scripture. For me, despite possible difficult days ahead as a believer, there is something very satisfying knowing my faith is firmly placed in our Sovereign God, having been told in advance what is to come. The last thing I would want to happen to myself, or ANYBODY for that matter, is to find I held on to a false notion that were to leave me totally unprepared! There is a reason why Jesus gives so many warning related to this time period leading up to his 2nd Coming.So I will end here with just a simple question. If we are to be raptured pretribulationally, that is before this future time of intense persecution of God's people, why does Jesus bother giving numerous warnings to be prepared, on guard and watchful? And please consider, how does one watch for that which comes without sign or warning as Pre-Trib imminence espouses? Certainly something to think about.Read the book. I anticipate you will acknowledge your time was well spent.
A**Z
Livro novo
Livro chegou antes do prazo, em perfeitas condições. Vendedor tem qualidade e confiabilidade . Recomendo.
G**R
A must read!
Another fascinating book by Alan Kurschner. A must read for Christians confused at the sequence of events during the End Times.
M**T
Good book, Not what you would expect in today's ...
.Good book,Not what you would expect in today's cookie cutter eschatology.
R**G
Five Stars
Excellent book. Highly recommend it.
B**D
I strongly recommend it.
A very informative and helpful book. I strongly recommend it.
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